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Issue 3043: Formation and Couple Count 4/4 does not match with the e-crib

The Waves of Tory (Dance)
Viktor Lehmann (tone2tone)
Assigned to
Viktor Lehmann

By going through issue 2940 (variations of dance descriptions for this dance) I noticed that the dance is set up as a “4 couple dance in a 4 cpl longwise set”, yet the e-crib adds a fifth couple to it … don’t know which parameter to change or if there is an original description for it.

Previous Actions

  • Date  Jan. 7, 2023, 10:18 p.m.
  • User  Viktor Lehmann (tone2tone)

New issue submitted

  • Date  Jan. 7, 2023, 11:15 p.m.
  • User  Murrough Landon (murrough)

This dance has many variations in number of bars and couples. I ignore this dance in most of my database checks. The MiniCrib is clearly for a different version than that originally entered in SCDDB. We could change SCDDB to match that and just add a note there are many other variations with odd or even numbers of couples. Some variations are mentioned in https://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/dances/waves-of-tory.html

  • Date  Jan. 8, 2023, 12:54 a.m.
  • User  Anselm Lingnau (anselm)

There seems to be confusion here among at least two different dances – the dance described by the e-crib (which may or may not be a transplanted English country dance) and an Irish ceili dance by the same name (remember that Irish ceili dances, in spite of their name, are nothing like Scottish ceilidh dances, which are very simple; Irish ceili dances can be quite involved and are more like Scottish country dances in many respects). See the description provided by Eric:

WAVES OF TORY (R80) longwise progressive set, any even number of couples Ar Rinci Foirne, Thirty Popular Ceili Dances

1-8 All advance & retire twice. 9-16 Each 2C set dance RH across, LH back. 17-24 All advance & retire twice. 25-32 Each 2C set dance LH across, RH back. 33-48 All face top and join near hands. As a couple, march to top of set, cast to bottom of set, back up to place. 49-64 Waves: 1C make arch, 2C go under. Continue waves alternating over or under. At top & bottom, turn around to progress back to place.

Note that you complete an entire trip to the top and bottom of set before ending waves.

65-80 Each line cast off on own side. 1C & 2C make arch at the bottom of the set, all others dance under to new places.

We should ignore the Irish dance completely because it is out of scope for SCDDB. We should ignore the ECD versions for the same reason. If we can find this somewhere as a bona-fide SCD we can concentrate on that.

  • Date  Jan. 9, 2023, 11:26 p.m.
  • User  Viktor Lehmann (tone2tone)

Suggestion: we have a video for that dance that is from the RSCDS archives and bound to a DVD “Scotland’s Social Dances Part 2”. The video says this is “instructional”, so we can assume that THIS version is kinda the “official” RSCDS version of that dance, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UfaYpMhao (for the video again)
https://archive.rscds.org/index.php/scotlands-social-dances-part-2 (for the DVD record)
I suggest we amend the dance to 5cpl/5cpl as such, leave the crib as is, and everything fits perfectly to most of the recordings (48 bars).
In case that’s a “go”, then we have to deal with issue 1501 and 2940 which provides an alternative description closer to the Irish version - which means we have to discuss if we take variations into consideration at all, in which form etc etc.
But first things first. Thoughts?

  • Date  Jan. 10, 2023, midnight
  • User  Murrough Landon (murrough)

Fine by me for the database to have a consistent description of the RSCDS 5 couple version. We can link other alternatives via extra info notes.

  • Date  Jan. 10, 2023, 12:14 a.m.
  • User  Anselm Lingnau (anselm)

“The Waves of Tory” is not an RSCDS dance because the RSCDS has never published a description of it.

Having said that, the dance on the RSCDS video is probably the closest thing to an official SCD version, so let’s concentrate on that (and add a note that dances with the same name exist elsewhere). We’re under no moral obligation to tie ourseives into knots over Irish ceili dances or English country dances; people who enjoy those can come up with their own database.

  • Date  Jan. 10, 2023, 12:56 a.m.
  • User  Viktor Lehmann (tone2tone)

Assigned changed to »tone2tone« (previously »None«)
Disposition changed to »Needs help« (previously »New«)

Thank you all! I have amended the entry for this dance quite a bit, changed it to 5/5 and amended the notes (they weren’t fitting anymore anyway).
One last question: video 2 is SO out of question of being of any help - shall we set it to “do not display”? It seems to be a version of a more non Scottish version where the band just plays on depending on how many couples are there and how many time they need. Plus: the formations are really far away from any other “standard” you come across (could be the English version, to be honest, with its more ballroom style couples’ switches).
As per issue 2940, I wrote to Mark that we won’t add his variation as this dance in itself is rather “fluid” and not set in stone. I also closed issue 1501 as the questions there have been resolved with the discussion here. Thanks for all your input. Wee dance, big problems ;-)

  • Date  Sept. 1, 2023, 10:33 p.m.
  • User  Viktor Lehmann (tone2tone)

Disposition changed to “Fixed” (previously “Needs help”)

I blocked the Ceili version video for now, as suggested, added more notes to the newest one (2023 Linlithgow) and set the RSCDS archive video to “editor’s pick”.