Issue 779: Instructions needed for "Ian Powrie's Hornpipe"

New issue submitted

Most likely there IS no second dance. If I understand it correctly, our current database basically started with Keith Napier’s Index to be transfered to Alan Paterson and then on to the online SCDDB. The question is where this “List of Dances that Keith Napier associated with TAC” comes from - is it part of the original Napier’s index? Is it / was it a special list Alan was given? There are dances on that list written by Australians, so there might be as well SOME reason that the Alec Hay version made in on to that list, but the connection got lost or never was there when it was digitally entered into the early database.
Anybody with access to the Napier’s index for any reference there? Or access to original data files that were given to Alan?

I have all printed editions of Keith Napier’s Index and will check them out later today - I am about to go into town shortly.

I have the original file “Ian Powrie’s Hornpipe.pdf” sent to me in the Gary Lindsey collection. I have no information on any “List of Dances … associated with TAC”

Assigned changed to »tone2tone« (previously »None«)
Disposition changed to »Needs help« (previously »New«)

Hi Eric, that’s funny as you are the only person who ever edited that list back in 2015 ;-) May we discuss to delete this list altogether? It makes no sense to me to have such lists online. I could come up with a list of “Dances associated with the German Branch” as well, but what’s the point? Someone better produces an online dance list for such an excerpt that is not a real publication. Not knowing TAC in depth, I even question that TAC would “devise” dances as an organisation. Should we get in contact with them? Perhaps they can shed light on who really devised those dances and what the “association” with TAC is? The whole thing is just… odd.

I finally checked my copy of Napier’s Index and it does have a “publication” called “Dances listed in Teacher’s Association Canada, Index” which refers to Ian Powrie’s Hornpipe, a 32-bar hornpipe (i.e., reel) with no further information given.

Personally I would assume that this entry in Napier’s Index refers to dances submitted to TACtalk (the TAC members’ magazine) by readers over the years, and published there. Remember that before teachers’ associations became the fashionable thing, TAC was basically the only venue for teachers world-wide, and many of them would join TAC even if they weren’t actually based in Canada. Based on that – and absent a comprehensive set of TACtalk back issues, which unfortunately aren’t available online – I would be happy to see us remove dance 3059 and point the TAC reference to dance 7436 instead (for historical reasons). If somebody actually finds the TACtalk issue in question and the dance turns out to be a different one, we can always put it back.

Unfortunately Book 5 is the single one of Alec Hay’s books that I don’t seem to have, so I can’t check whether the description there says “previously published in TACtalk issue such-and-such”. That book came out in 1998, i.e., post-Napier’s Index.

Both dances “Ian Powrie’s Hornpipe” (3059 and 7436) were entered in the Alan Paterson times, as is the publication 564 “Dances listed in TAC” with 29 dances.

We cannot delete that “pseudo-publication” “Dances listed in TAC”. For most of the 29 dances it is the only source we have that tells that these dances exist, even if most other information on these dances is lacking. But it is hardly credible sat such a list was just made up if these dances did not exist.
I propose that we open a new issue about this “non-publication”. Let us first ask TAC if they can find the list in their old files, and move on from there. Then we can look at all our files to see if we have any information for those dance names,

If anyone needs the Alec Hay book 5, the Gary Lindsey files have a full copy of all its 20 dances in his GLDanceScans150404/OtherBooks/

Greetings. Eric

The “Dances listed in TAC” “publication” is straight from Napier’s Index, where it is number 799. I contend that these are presumably dances that appeared in TACTalk over the years. Whether an actual list exists at TAC – Napier’s Index says “listed in … index” – or whether a third party went through TACTalk and catalogued all those dances for the benefit of an entity or entities unknown but presumably including Napier’s Index is anybody’s guess.

We’re not deleting that publication. There are various similar “publications” that we get from Napier’s Index and there’s nothing wrong with having them.

As to Ian Powrie’s Hornpipe, I still believe the most probable explanation is that it was originally published in TACTalk and Keith Napier catalogued it as such. Then eventually in 1998 (after Keith had stopped updating his Index) it appeared in the fifth Alec Hay book, and Alan got it again from there. From the information in Napier’s Index it is impossible to tell for sure whether the dance in the Alec Hay book is identical to the one in Napier’s Index, so either Alan didn’t notice the duplication or wasn’t sure whether there is one dance or two by that name. In any case, this has probably gone as far as it reasonably can, so let’s get rid of the stub and keep the entry for the dance in the Alec Hay book, and then move on to more interesting things.

Disposition changed to »Fixed« (previously »Needs help«)

Okay then! Changed the dance in the TAC list to the Alec Hay one and deleted the possible duplicate, closing the issue for the time being. I also slightly amended the notes for this publication to add more of Anselm’s information. I have however sent an email to TAC yesterday (before all your feedback) to see if they can add something (e.g. devisers to all those unknown dances or such), which I will add in case something comes along, otherwise it stays as is now after this one change. Thanks to all for adding comments.

Greetings all!

I thought that I had all of Keith Napier’s editions of his Index,

However, what I have is a copy of his original publication (dated 1978) plus the following supplements dated -

10/84 Aug-86 September 1991 July 1992 and Jan 90

plus a 4 1/4 inch floppy which I can no longer access and have not yet tried to identify when I obtained it.

The Publication listed in SCDDB as “Dances listed in TAC” and numbered 799 is not listed in Keith’s Index or his supplements.

However, in his September 1991 supplement (and subsequent supplements) is a dance source numbered 798 and titled “Dance(s) … published in Tactalk”.

“Ian Powrie’s Hornpipe” does not appear to be mentioned in this or any of the subsequent supplements I have.

I do have an “almost” full set of “TACTalk” - from Volume 2 number 1 (dated June 1977).

Earlier this morning I scanned from Volume 2 number 1 to Volume 9 number 4 (dated March 1985).

There are no new dances published in any of theses issues of “TACTalk”.

However, an expanded version of “Mrs Hepburn Belches” is published in an article in Volume 3 number 1 (dated June 1978) and a photocopy of Lt Colonel Hunter’s original of “The Reel of The 51st Division” in an article about the dance in Volume 6 number 3 (dated December 1991).

However, on page 10 in Volume 7 number 3 (dated December 1982) is an apology for an error that refers back to an index of dances published by TA(Canada) in about 1969 / 1970.

This MAY be the origin of the ‘publication’ “Dances listed in TAC”.

Me again.

I did not expect my previous Action to be processed but then I am probably still logged into my account whereas when i sent my first posting / action I was not!

To finish -

I will go through my copies of Keith Napier’s supplements to identify what dances are in dance source 798

and

my copies of “TACTalk” to try and match up the dances with the issues they were published in.

I will get back in touch as soon as I am able.

I can provide Keith’s postal address and (possibly) his email address if that would be of use.

RE: This MAY be the origin of the ‘publication’ “Dances listed in TAC”.

However, I doubt it as was published too early!

A copy should be in TAC’s archives if they formally published such an index.

My apologies for the formatting of my postings / actions but that is Anselm’s programming / word processor that is to blame.

Regards,

Iain

FYI, my copy of Napier’s Index says it is the “Fourth Edition, June 1995”, with an separate A5 set of additions covering June 1995 up to April 1996.

In my copy there is no publication 798, but publication 799 is “Dance listed in Teacher’s Association Canada, Index”. (I used to have the floppy disk, too, but I have no idea where that is right now; probably in a box in the basement.) This may be the document that TACTalk issue 7.3 refers to.

Dear Anselm,

RE: FYI, my copy of Napier’s Index says it is the “Fourth Edition, June 1995”, with an separate A5 set of additions covering June 1995 up to April 1996.

In my copy there is no publication 798, but publication 799 is “Dance listed in Teacher’s Association Canada, Index”.

That is the problem of obtaining just the supplements rather than the new editions of the full Index.

I should probably continue with my comments about Napier’s Index dance source 798 / 799 in a separate Action, but having started here I will continue here.

I am partially through my collection of TACTalks and have not found any instructions for new dances with the exception of the following -

Volume 11, number 2 (dated September 1986) includes my dance “The Great Thunder Falls” on page 8, but only because I had dedicated the dance to the TAC Summer School - having visited the Niagara Falls while attending the 1986 summer school.

On page 1 of the same issue is “A Publishing Statement” from which I have extracted the second paragraph -

“Another limitation, a departure from which occurs in this issue for special reasons, is that we do not publish new dances. We have received a few such over the years, but it was never envisaged that TACTALK should include that sort of material. As many readers know, a few dances have been published by TACBOOKS, but normally these have had some connection with our own activities.”

Where the dances listed in Napier’s Index dance source 798 / 799 were published is still a mystery - unless they were published in a newsletter of some sort prior to the establishment of TACTalk around 1976.

Regards,

Iain