Issue 1263: The Cumberland Square Eight: describing "The Basket"

New issue submitted

I have found another description under the name “The Square Eight” (http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Dances/EDSImages/EFDS3911-CumberlandSquareEight-1.jpg).

In that one circles are denoted as “ring” the “basket” is described as a “pivot ring”.

@Eric: you denoted the alias “Cumberland Square” as spelling. I suggest that this should be set to “official” because I guess these names are all used and it is hard to decide whether some of them are “inofficial”, but the difference is certainly not “spelling” ;)

I have added “The Square Eight” as an “official” alias.

Best, Heiko

Assigned changed to »EricFerguson« (previously »None«)
Disposition changed to »Needs help« (previously »New«)

Thanks for adding the alias “The Square Eight”, of which I was not aware. It is an ECD name, but may well be used by some.

I have made “Cumberland Square” an “official” alias. Fixed.

I leave the issue open so that more replies can come in about “The Basket”.

I don’t think it is the basket – I’ve only ever heard it referred to as a basket.

I would probably consider names like “Cumberland Square” or “The Square Eight” as inofficial, rather than official, aliases. “Official” aliases are the ones given on the actual dance instructions, as in “C'Est L'Amour or The Flirt”. Inofficial aliases are the ones dances acquire from third parties (sometimes tongue-in-cheek) during the course of their existence. In this case, the dance is canonically called “(The) Cumberland Square Eight” but, the folk process being what it is, this seems to get abbreviated in various ways in different places.

Anselm

Hi Anselm,

in general I am with you about “official” and “inofficial” if there is a devisor and a more or less official description.

In the case of this dance, which is even attributed ‘traditional’, it seems that there are several names used and it is hard to define which one is the single ‘correct’ one. There is for instance the ECD description I posted above published in 1939 in “English Dance & Song” as “The Square Eight” with a subtitle “as danced in Cumberland, near the Scottish Border”. Since this is possibly the earliest description we have, possibly the “Cumberland” made it into the title to describe that this is “The Square Eight” which is danced in Cumberland. There is the description in “Burns Night in Annapolis Valley” where Keppie (1992) has written it down. Here the dance is entitled “The Cumberland Square Eight”, but this already just a snapshot 53 years later. “Cumberland Square” which you also find in different places has been certainly abridged from the above, but might be misleading as the seemingly has nothing to do with a location called “Cumberland Square”.

Hmm, so who are we to decide for such a traditional dance what is its “official” title. I suggest that at least “The Square Eight” as well as “The Cumberland Square Eight” ARE official titles. But actually I would go as far an say that all three variants may be labelled “official”.

Of course, this only relates to this dance where the ‘true’ source and thus the ‘true’ title is hard to be sorted out.

Any suggestions?

Cheers, Heiko

Assigned changed to »None« (previously »EricFerguson«)

This is a complicated issue, which requires serious research on dance version and figures. I am no longer able to contribute to that effort, even though I initiated the issue myself. So I am resetting this issue to “not assigned”.

Assigned changed to “EricFerguson” (previously “None”)

A lot of attention has gone to the name and aliases of this dance. That topic can now be CLOSED.

The main issue (see the title) is however “A Basket”, the formation at the end of the whole dance.

1. There seem to be several variants. Can someone please describe them? I want to add that to the Extra Info
2. Can anyone provide one or more “original descriptions” of this dance?
3. Should “A Basket” be considered as a SCD Formation, and be added to SCDDB? Or is it a spontaneous inofficial feature (as the “A Hooch”)?
   Opinions please!

I have watched a considerable amount of videos too re this dance. It seems that your original descriptions are not that far away from one another. The dancers either keep the feet on their ground, or the women are lifted. In all cases, tulloch step is being used, slip step is no option here. Variant 1 MAY mention some “leaning back”, in reality this seems marginal - yes, some are leaning out a bit for better speed, but with the arm hold behind all backs, you simply CAN’T bend back that much. I doubt we can add it as a formation, unless you know of other dances where this uncommon formation is presented as well. And with the women “flying”, we have variants again where even the name “basket” makes no sense anymore. It will be really really difficult to find a description that can be considered as “original”; we might just find a few where someone made the effort to write down what he came across in reality.
I suggest to describe the things you came across in descriptions and videos. State that no original source can be found, but variations can be seen, and that should do for some ceilidh dance like this one. Other suggestions anyone?

Assigned changed to “tone2tone” (previously “EricFerguson”)

I am no longer dancing, and would like to pull out of all issues now in my name. Victor, could you please take over and close off this issue, in the way you proposed, asking for help where you need it? Our tradition in SCDDB is that we create a formation if there are at least 3 dances with that particular figure. If we do not reach 3, we could add the information to the “Extra Info” of the dances(s). Cheers, Eric

Hi Eric, I will try and do my best to take over “your” issues. And on behalf of everyone here I can’t thank you enough for all the time and energy you have put into the database work so far!!! And of course we hope you still come back with comments and remarks where you feel you can contribute. I will just try to be the engine needed to keep the ball rolling as long as issues are unresolved.

Disposition changed to “Fixed” (previously “Needs help”)

I added a brief comment on the “basket swing” to extra notes, but I will close this issue now. IMHO “basket swing” doesn’t qualify to be added to formations, as obviously various things can be done here and the name has become a placeholder for various things.